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The Lost Waters => The Messager - News, Suggestions, and Problems => Suggestions => Topic started by: Nyran on July 29, 2013, 12:58:46 AM

Title: Clan Revamping
Post by: Nyran on July 29, 2013, 12:58:46 AM
So, as we know, Clan Wars, is dying. It's lack of intrigue and fun has diminished. I propose a complete overhaul of the system. We do have a "Realm of Peace", but be honest, who uses it?

I think we should Eschew Clan Wars in General, and focus on developing a culture.  A future of our Psuedo Storyline, in which nations have expanded, and are no longer Mono-elemental as we know them.

Hopefully soon, My colleagues will elaborate and follow up on this. Until then, I wait...
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 02:07:36 AM
Well it's more we already know what to expect from who we've already fought, everyone who battles me knows i'm going to use something Ice, Wolf, and/or trap related.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 02:18:25 AM
Thank you.  Here's what we've come up with, and also what other sites have done:

The clan wars are a thing of a past.  The clans themselves have grown.  Some rose up to greatness, others have fallen.  Clans have become so expansive now that they can no longer be mono-elemental - for Venus reaches Air's Rock, and Mercury claims Gaia Rock.  The people of these locations, of course, are influenced by these very rocks, and the children born there tend to be the element of the rocks.

So what's happened?  The clans have risen and become nations.  Rather than being those of an element, they instead follow the ideals of an element.

Sol and Luna have fallen, overwhelmed by the might of the other clans.  Their culture, however, lives on, and various aspects of their cultures have been absorbed into the others.

Venus values Leadership, Courage, and Heroism.  They respect the aspect of the Body - Strength and Beauty.
Jupiter values Knowledge, Cunning, and Insight.  They respect the aspect of the Mind - Logic and Reason.
Mars values Loyalty, Determination, and Honor.  They respect the aspect of the Spirit - Passion and Spirituality.
Mercury values Empathy, Motivation, and Adventure.  They respect the aspect of the Heart - Emotion and Bonds.

A lot of turmoil happened in the interim, but at this point in the clans, new leaders have taken the reigns, and the world is now at peace.  The people are repairing the damage from the wars, recovering from the reign of the previous administrations, and trying to repair relations between the clans.  It's a time of peace, but it's also a time of political tension, cautious diplomacy, and public distrust of those from other nations.  However, things are slowly getting better...

Plus, who knows.  Perhaps there's something on the horizon... something that may wind up making the four clans band together.  They once fought one another... but soon, they might wind up fighting back to back, defending one another.  These four clans, with the elements held to their very soul, will find that united they're stronger than they ever could have been alone...
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on July 29, 2013, 02:22:44 AM
Meaning you can still be a Sol and Luna adept, but can join other clans. I really like where this is going. I am getting tired of Clan wars. It just seems a bit DEAD. This might interest more people in coming to the forum too! I'm currently leaving Sol clan, because I'm getting bored. This will make much more sense as to why people have changed their element.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 02:25:09 AM
Perhaps - it depends on where you want to go.

Y'all know me - I'd rather push the whole Element/Fundament system, where you have BOTH an element and a fundament.  Want to be a Sol adept?  Sure.  But you can also be a Mercury adept at the same time.  I've even got icons for that, thanks to Kirigishi!

Sol ---------------- Neutral ---------------- Luna
(http://i.imgur.com/CaF5Kze.png)(http://i.imgur.com/XFn3OxP.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TZXe8Km.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/kN72OKo.png)(http://i.imgur.com/yRotfnE.png)(http://i.imgur.com/Cu478tD.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/N3w9gS7.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0oAxSYy.png)(http://i.imgur.com/TxCZGWZ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/RqwHSjY.png)(http://i.imgur.com/LjJWzbV.png)(http://i.imgur.com/57b1c5X.png)

What's that?  You want to shoot beams of light?

Crystal and Celestial aspects are what you'll want.  Shoot light like Crystallux in your attacks, or call down astral light like the Phaeton's Blade.  Or, you know.  Wave Motion Cannon spells, like the Rune Blade's Void Beam attack. :D
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on July 29, 2013, 02:40:31 AM
I don't get all of the icons
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Nyran on July 29, 2013, 02:44:15 AM
In order from Top to bottom

Venus
Mars
Jupiter
Mercury.

Left to right.

Sol Aligned - Neutral - Luna Aligned
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 03:00:05 AM
They're the elemental aspects.

SolNeutralLuna
VenusCrystalStonePlant
MarsExplosiveFlameCorrosive
JupiterAstralWindLightning
MercuryIceWaterVapor

There's two ways to do it - pick one of each, or the way I do it, which allows for six fundamental combinations (basically, pick one or two columns)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 03:05:30 AM
for some reason the mercury's sol and luna seem backwards to me
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 03:08:51 AM
Here's the logic behind it:

Quote
Sol - Sol is the power of order and stability, and gives shape to all things.  It is symbolized by the sun, and is associated with Light.  Without Sol, nothing would hold form, and the world would be a mass of turbulent particles and... stuff.  Basically, Sol is for Alchemy what the four forces are for Science.  When an element is charged with a Sol alignment, it tends to have a more solid, rigid form, or takes on a Light-esque form.  The Four Aspects associated with Sol are:  Crystal, Burst, Astral, and Ice.  Sol also has the ability to build things up and bolster them - as such, it is the source of benedictions (buffs and recovery spells).


Luna - Luna is the power of chaos and change, and fuels evolution.  It is symbolized by the moon, and associated with Darkness.  Without Luna, nothing could have evolved.  The world would be solid and seamless, and quite boring to tell you the truth.  Luna is for alchemy akin to what evolution and similar natural forces are for Science.  When an element is charged with a Luna alignment, is tends to have a more fluid, flexible form, or takes on a Dark-esque form.  The Four Aspects associated with Luna are:  Plant, Corrosive, Lightning, and Steam.  Luna's nature also tends to break things down to try and change them - it's only natural then that it is the source of most maledictions (debuffs and ailment spells)


Pure - A Pure Affinity is when an element has little influence from sol or luna.  They're still present, but neither is dominant over the other.  These make up the four elements in their purest form, and when we refer to an element, it is often by one of these four names, even if we are describing another aspect.  These four pure elemental forces make up everything you see around us - they are literally the building blocks of life.  Between them, as well as the growth given by Luna and shape given by Sol, make up everything in existence.  The Four Aspects considered a Pure form are:  Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water.  As this is the source of all, Healing and Substance are said to be born of a pure energy, and since all aspects are based upon the Pure elements in one way or another, people of any fundamental affinity are able to use Healing and Damage spells equally well.


Ice is the solid form of Water, thus it's Sol.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 03:13:16 AM
I had a feeling that was the direction you was going with it...in the end it's just me that it seems backwards but makes sense at the same time(and thus why everything is a never ending contradiction with me)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 03:14:19 AM
Nah, until I actually defined the fundaments, those two were reversed.  After defining them, I had to switch them.  That, and... I've always been kinda... eh, with the Steam aspect.  But I can't think of any other thing that makes sense for mercury.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 03:15:35 AM
alright, though it kinda makes me feel out of place
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 03:18:21 AM
?  How?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 03:20:00 AM
Well wolves are usually associated with the Moon/Luna, but I tend to use Ice Psynergy which is a Mercury/Sol Alignment by that chart.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on July 29, 2013, 03:20:25 AM
I'll stay with Neutral. I love my wind.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 03:25:40 AM
Well wolves are usually associated with the Moon/Luna, but I tend to use Ice Psynergy which is a Mercury/Sol Alignment by that chart.
Which is why I have my alignment system, where there's six options not three.  Keep in mind, these apply to all your alt classes, but not item classes which simply do whatever they want.

Greater Sol - Only the Sol Aspects
Lesser Sol - Both Sol and Neutral Aspects
Pure Element - Only the Neutral Aspects
Lesser Luna - Both Neutral and Luna Aspects
Greater Luna - Only the Luna Aspects
Balanced - Both the Sol and Luna Aspects.

None is more powerful than the other.  This merely lets you have more options with the types of spells you want to use.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Star Magician on July 29, 2013, 05:32:31 AM
I have two ideas for Luna Mercury for you if you want to use them instead of steam because I kinda feel a little "eh" about it too lol:
Mist (which could go hand-in-hand with steam anyway, making it more broad)
Void (a cold, chilling absense of any energy)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 05:35:28 AM
Well, to be fair, it's more "vapor", and mists and similar things *are* included.

Void, an absence of energy, sounds more like what Saturn would be - an Anti-Alchemy force.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Star Magician on July 29, 2013, 05:37:46 AM
Ah, well in that case, maybe just go with a name change because steam is pretty specific :P
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 05:43:31 AM
Done and done.  Anywho, before we get off topic, this is about the idea of revamping the clans, not adopting a new system or anything yet.  You've seen my angle, but nobody said we're using it - we'd have to figure out what we want to do with the clans before we really even think about that.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 29, 2013, 06:15:27 AM
Steam also is too close to fire, making you think more of heat than water. 
    Anywho,  I think I like this psynergy idea but I don't know how I feel about the clans being peaceful.  I like the Clan wars personally.   I've always liked the idea of the clans forming temporary alliances and duking it out.  I'm happy to see that our small community is mature enough to pretend to beat the poo out of each other, yet still remain friends.  I have a feeling that that migjt be difficult to maintain in larger communities. Also with too many people playing, I can see how it could get confusing.  I do see how it can get stale sometimes, but I think it's the interaction with each other that keeps it entertaining.
    Admittedly I'm saddened with the idea of Luna and Sol receding, howeve,r I recognise it as logical, and admit I'm probably only saddened because I'm biased.    I noticed you seem to have only positive, noble qualities assigned to each element.  Difficult to uphold while on the Luna side of things because, even though Luna is positive in that it brings about change, it is still chaotic.  Could we perhaps find a way to include extremes of good and bad for Sol and Luna's sake?   
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 06:19:12 AM
Nobody said they were nice.  This is implied to be a new peace caused specifically by the nations all recently getting new leadership, and thus sorting out affairs within their own countries first.  They're trying diplomacy right now.

But old hostilities remain.  Those who were warlike are still untrusted, the people are a bit racist to one another, and there's huge tension going on.

There is conflict.  Lots of it.  But it's not direct - indirect, misdirected, underhanded... that stuff is there.  Instead of trying to kill your friends in the Clan War, now you're trying to outsmart them in this tense peace.  The possibility that thing escalate and return to war is still there, but it is discouraged for the most part, because everyone does that and that's boring.

Besides, we have the Colosseum for direct conflict.  I think it's time we started having more one-upsmanships and trickery and stuff.

Also, Luna has good qualities as well.

Quote
Luna is the power of chaos and change, and fuels evolution.  It is symbolized by the moon, and associated with Darkness.  Without Luna, nothing could have evolved.  The world would be solid and seamless, and quite boring to tell you the truth.

However, the elements and the fundaments are neutral - they're neither good nor bad.  It's the nations that have the "good qualities" - but that's said from their point of view, and what they think is good.  Obviously, they have bad ones as well.  They just don't flaunt them.  What I posted about the four nations wasn't an accurate portrayal of them - it's the basis of what they think they're about.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 29, 2013, 06:33:13 AM
Okay.  Makes sense.  So you're talking more politics of the clans and less brawls.  Could you go into a little more detail about how we might do that?  How would we keep that from turning into a free for all like Clan Wars has a tendency of doing.
   And I didn't mean to say Luna has no good qualities, I just meant they're more chaotic in my eyes while the Sol clan is more, say, lawful.   In my eyes, it's not so much between good and evil as it is between chaos and order.   They just have different ways of achieving their goals is all.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 06:43:41 AM
Well, that's exactly what they are:

Sol is Order.  It is rigid and unmoving.
Luna is Chaos.  It is fluid and evolving.

Too much of either is bad.  In the right amounts and mixed well, it's awesome.

Anywho, to go into more detail... the first thing we might want to do is create a world.  Worry first about the small stuff - what will be the new names?  What would our governments be like?  How will we run the nations?  What are the nation's borders?

After that, it's much easier.  For example, I usually see Jupiter as being Imperialistic.  What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think Empire?  The evil empire from stuff like star wars.  That's a serious image problem that we would have to face, and a lot of the conflict would be the extreme amount of distrust that those in, say, a Republic might have against us.  Wars of ideals, debates, and culture.  That's how the political events would be - intellectually driven, in heated arguments and flared tempers.

Then you have oneupsmanship.  These are competitions like Collosso.  Tests of strength, fighting off monsters and always trying to do better than the other nations, and of course, duals to prove who's the best at combat.  But nobody said that this is strictly about strength - there could easily be two divisions.  The Warrior Division, and the Caster Division - where it's the power of their spells that win out.  This is a post-Golden Sun world, after all.  Alchemy is well known and common.

Then you have the underhanded competitions.  These would be done in mostly a roleplay kind of fashion, but they're also probably the trickiest to do, probably with restrictions to ensure fair play.  For example, one vs one, with a judge from another clan to ensure no godmoding.  The point of these?  Let's say there's some documents.  You know, stuff with intel.  And they need to sneak in and steal them.  Well, the trick is this - where do you hide them, where do post guards, etc?  This could be done in a kind of labyrinth/minotaur style, and heck, there might even be actual flash games or something out there we could literally use to play it, just with people typing out their moves from the game into the forum to make a fun story out of it.

And, of course, we have casual competitions, where a representative from each clan is chosen to play stuff online such as Board Game, Cards Against Humanity, and other fun party games.

The point is to do more than just fight.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 29, 2013, 07:09:00 AM
So each person in a clan would be a high up official?   Because if they were just a common person they wouldn't matter much.  Would they be a ruler or more like an ambassador? It all sounds complicated and would seem to require higher attendance in members.   Are you sure we have enough people for this?

Earlier I was thinking Takoshi and Scorp were onto something to make Clan Wars into a more manageable and entertaining system.   Takoshi was working on making the game more strategic, and the idea for mapping out the area fully would greatly help with keeping people from straying and making the whole thing easier to visualize and comprehend. Limiting the layout might make things easier. While Scorp's idea of using FE tiles would simplify the process.  I think confusion and being overwhelmed is the main issue with Clan Wars.   Working out the kinks and developing these two things would perhaps bring in more members playing Clan Wars.
   But yes, that still is more fighting than your plan, even with Takoshi helping to develope it into more of a strategy based game of capture the flag (in the loosest of senses a Golden Sun Stratego), that in theory could help prevent the violent free for all.    But as far as attracting new members, a simple game might be more appealing than a more detailed game of politics.  I like your idea, but it seems a little complicated and might scare off people from joining if they're afraid of doing the wrong thing.   
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
Well, the way I do it is that clanless are citizens, and clanned have a position in either the Government, Military, or Clergy.

As far as the game of politics goes - that's a thematic way of saying "Debate Club", you know that, right?  These are simply a bunch of different types of competitions, but with a thematic twist.  You can do as much or as little as you want, you're not forced into it.  Heck, if all you want to do is come up with cultural stuff like buildings and food and cities and stuff, you can do that.  Nobody said you have to get complicated with any of this stuff.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 08:17:54 PM
I'm liking these ideas, now if only could get sea king in here to look at them
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 29, 2013, 08:41:29 PM
Well, someone could... you know... throw an email at them.  That might have a better chance of getting their attention.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 29, 2013, 08:49:45 PM
Ok I emailed him, *goes to pester Legend also*
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 03:23:58 AM
Clan Wars could use Chess and Checkers to represent some of the battles.

C4A; I like the idea of having a map to serve as a visual guide for the players.

for some reason the mercury's sol and luna seem backwards to me

Agreed, that and Venus.  Plants and steam; Sun and heat.
 :95:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 03:27:41 AM
Some definitely seem backwards, but the solid and flowing idea makes sense.

Have you played FE J? (and you can just call me Cheese if you want)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 03:45:39 AM
I played a Fire Emblem game on a GBA a long time ago.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 03:56:23 AM
So you are familiar with the basic layout of the game? Scorp found a way to make up your own floors/levels/tile thingies.  Unfortunately though he's been busy lately and hasn't had the time to make more. But it's a very simple effective way of mapping things out. It's a shame there aren't more people able to help with that.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 04:27:40 AM
Maybe...  What I don't know cam be looked up.

Has Scorpio tried using photo manipulation on a map of Weyard to create tiles?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 04:45:51 AM
I don't know.   Ask him.  GS simulation would be ideal but FE is easier to manipulate and you can see all of one area at once.   Then again if you guys could find a way to use GS's style of mapping that would be too demanding for make rooms and floors to a castle, then that would be awesome.  the best part of mapping something out would not only be the visualization, but once made could be reused and a mod could easily use it to draw on and map out where and extra enemies could be. Such as Takoshi's ice clone things or even trap once they have been discovered, It would also help with preventing any god modding if the mod were to have their own personal map to reference, that they planned out before hand. Not that anyone here intentionally godmods.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 30, 2013, 05:02:56 AM
*whistles an innocent tune*
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 05:12:16 AM
 :tongue: You're a good mod. I don't think you abuse your power.  I just think this would help organize things, and after they're made they could be reused; so that would mean they'd be even more useful in the long run.   I'd volunteer my services, but I could only help for about a week maybe two before I have to drop off here again for a little while.  And it would have to be an effort made by several people working together so the layout is ideal for everyone.  For instance, I'd be happy to make something, but people would need to tell me what they want it look like.   And making the maps for games already in play might be a lost cause since they already have so many rooms and no order.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 30, 2013, 05:19:06 AM
Right, though it be nice if everyone could actually make a map of their own little domain for battles or puzzles. (been thinking of tome again)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 05:27:47 AM
Do you mean like having a copy of a map that they could draw on and mark where traps and such are, or do you mean mapping everything out themselves?   I can see how the latter would get very confusing.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 30, 2013, 06:15:40 AM
combination of the two, one for everyone to use, the second for personal stuff or special events
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 06:39:58 AM
Might be more difficult but suppose it could be doable.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 30, 2013, 07:15:56 AM
right especially since everything works and looks better in my head then my explanation of how it looks in my head.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 07:29:41 AM
Fair enough. Do you have a way of making it more comprehensible?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Aether on July 30, 2013, 01:46:57 PM
So if we go with Rolina's... Lightning or Wind hmm....
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on July 30, 2013, 06:01:18 PM
If you go with the way I actually do it, then you could have both if you wanted.  My system is basically "Pick one or two columns.  That's what you can use."  There is no benefit between choosing one or two, it's just to let you do what you want.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 06:38:27 PM
Here's an example of the tiling method I had in mind.

(http://goldensunforums.thelostwaters.com/profile_pictures/4102_1375208925.jpg)

The tile size can be changed.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 07:58:37 PM
Okay. Our battles are usually restricted to a specific area.  Think you could do a close up of a desert or castle?
@ Rolina.  No, I like your new system for psynergy. It's more balanced and orderly than what we have now.  Certainly it makes Sol and Luna more comprehensible to deal with, even if I'll be a little sad to see them go as full on clans.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 09:37:18 PM
Yes, just name the area or provide a picture of it. 
:72:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 09:40:22 PM
The only problem with that is not being able to create something new.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 09:45:24 PM
A custom picture can be used instead.  I'll see if less magnified tiles can be created so editing will be easier.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 09:53:21 PM
Would you be willing to give it a shot at making something for us to see?  I think the reason tiles in FE were being considered was simply to make creating maps easier.  It doesn't have to be tiles if you could find an easier way.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on July 30, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
Okay, consider it added to the list.
:50:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 30, 2013, 10:04:07 PM
Cool thanks dude. No pressure and no rush though.  These are all just ideas for fixing up Clan Wars. I'm certainly not in charge.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on July 31, 2013, 08:02:56 PM
I'll go with Jupiter's Lesser Luna.

we should also have personality levels. (not sure what to call them so..)

Like

Lawful Good
Chaotic Good
Neutral
Chaotic Evil
Chaotic Good



Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 31, 2013, 08:07:22 PM
Isn't there usually chaotic and lawful neutral as well?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on July 31, 2013, 08:22:12 PM
yes though i think he's using just neutral for the both of them
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on July 31, 2013, 08:43:36 PM
yes I am
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on July 31, 2013, 10:37:37 PM
Oh okay  :55:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Jenna on August 02, 2013, 05:12:40 AM
Guys I think I know what clan I want be part of.

I was thinking either Mercury or Mars, but then it hit me, like my lovely Mia in Lost Age and Broken Seal, I want to be a duel type, she is after all a Guru type adept in those games, so it makes sense that I a part of a duel type Mercury/Mars clan to represent not only the type of Adept Agatio is, but the type Mia is as well.

However if I can only pick one, then I'm going with Mars since Pyroclasm is my favorite Psynergy, I spam that move in every Golden Sun game and pretend I'm Saturos every time I use that move.

So, yeah I decided what clan to be part of.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 02, 2013, 05:22:55 AM
Nobody likes Luna  :01:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 02, 2013, 05:53:49 AM
I like luna but I just happen to be more mercury then luna
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 02, 2013, 06:31:05 AM
With Rolina's system you could be both.... but you like ice so I guess not.  I'm all alone  :58:             I do like that I'd be able to be Venus as well though  :smile:  And the part of Venus I'd enjoy the most. Plants.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 02, 2013, 07:58:35 AM
I'm a Greater Luna Jupiter Magus in my system.  So don't worry - I'm sharing the Luna love with ya.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 02, 2013, 05:30:01 PM
Actually I was going with balanced so I could have bits of the 3 mercury
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 02, 2013, 05:44:20 PM
I wish to be a Greater Luna Venus Adept.     But can I keep my little  :luna: ?   
 
  Huh.  No idea who I am asking since pretty much all the decision makers aren't here....
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 03, 2013, 05:24:56 AM
Actually I was going with balanced so I could have bits of the 3 mercury
You only get two.  Balanced means you get both Sol and Luna forms, but not the Pure Element forms.

@Charon gif:  Actually, that's another thing I've been wanting to get changed.  I'll make another suggestion topic for that.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Merc on August 04, 2013, 04:25:23 AM
Also, an idea for lore stuff: Since the general premise of this forum is that we're on an island in the Lost Waters, why don't we break the clans up into different parts of an island, or all the clans get their own island, with a clanless section as well? That way, we can have all of these separate clans and government structures without actually losing the original Lost Waters ideas.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 04, 2013, 05:00:20 AM
Oh that's an interesting idea.... Every clan getting there own island.  It would be easier to separate the governments.            It would be interesting to try and figure out how Sol and Luna would get along together.   I have an idea but it seems difficult to put into words.     I guess that means it's too complicated then....          Meh.  I like Rolina's ideas, and would love to find a simple way of carrying them out without scaring off new members from giving it a shot.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Nyran on August 04, 2013, 05:08:30 AM
If I recall right, I'm lesser Luna Venus.

That's rocks and Plants, right?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 04, 2013, 05:35:24 AM
Well, I figure if you just make all the stuff friendly and easy to jump in, there'd be no problem.  For example, you could play stuff like Board Game or Apples to Apples.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 04, 2013, 05:48:46 AM
O_o    I like this idea.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Nyran on August 04, 2013, 06:04:43 AM
People tell me I'm horrible at Apples to Apples.

Then again, I judged for "Manly" and I chose Unicorn.....(I thought it was funny)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 04, 2013, 06:44:15 AM
 :biggrin:  I like it.  What were the other options?       Also what's Boardgame?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 04, 2013, 04:03:33 PM
I'd Say like Dungeon and Dragons, Chess, Fire Emblem map style Board game is my guess.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 04, 2013, 04:45:07 PM
None of the above.  I meant this:
http://www.boardgame-online.com/ (http://www.boardgame-online.com/)

Also, Takoshi, do some homework.  D&D is most certainly not a board game in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 04, 2013, 05:29:49 PM
It sometimes is with tiles and little figurines.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Scorpio on August 04, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
So... I'd be a Luna-Aligned Mars Adept?
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 04, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
Cheese Got what i was implying
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 04, 2013, 10:36:41 PM
It sometimes is with tiles and little figurines.
No, those are maps to help figure out who is where.  It helps alleviate confusion you may have.  But here's the thing -

In a board game, the board is standardized and mandatory.  In D&D, the board is shaped like the dungeon, and may not even exist.  In fact, in most games, it doesn't.  Only the most dedicated of fans actually go out and get actual boards, usually it's just some graph paper and finger, if something is even used at all.

Again, research.  Do it.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 04, 2013, 11:20:17 PM
I play D&D, and I have played a boardgame version.  It wasn't just a map to assist with visuals.  It was an actual set out game that had no DM and had cards and other things that determined the outcome of the game. I describing it oddly I know, but bear with me.  I can't remember what it was called, that was like a year ago in some little hole-in-the-wall gaming shop. But it was a boardgame.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Ivan Strider on August 05, 2013, 12:46:15 AM
hmm I love apples to apples (and Nyran I thought it was funny too) and Boardgame Online (RoH got me into it)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 05, 2013, 12:56:56 AM
I play D&D, and I have played a boardgame version.  It wasn't just a map to assist with visuals.  It was an actual set out game that had no DM and had cards and other things that determined the outcome of the game. I describing it oddly I know, but bear with me.  I can't remember what it was called, that was like a year ago in some little hole-in-the-wall gaming shop. But it was a boardgame.
:36: That is not D&D!  That's naught but a shallow imitation!
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 05, 2013, 01:00:49 AM
:))   Alright, not saying I cared for it, but it was certainly based off of D&D.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 05, 2013, 01:17:26 AM
Well, lots of things are to be fair.  Hell, Final Fantasy even.

Still, a board game would simply be made to appeal to casual people who didn't really understand the nuances.  It's a way to let nerds enjoy the franchise with their families, while when it comes to actually playing D&D, it's best for us to get with other nerds who'd appreciate the same level of complexity that the main game has to offer.

In any case, I'm still a big 3.5e fangirl.  I've yet to find an edition with as much expanded variety is that.  Soooo many things you can do with it~
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 05, 2013, 03:39:45 AM
I only got into D&D within the last year.  Before that D&D based books were my guilty pleasure(love you Drizzt).  I remember when THOSE made me feel like a complete nerd.  Now  I have become such a nerd, I don't give a poo :))
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Star Magician on August 05, 2013, 06:21:50 AM
So technical >.>
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 06, 2013, 01:53:38 AM
So technical >.>
That's like calling Final Fantasy an FPS.  There's nothing technical about it - yer just wrong.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: CHEESE4ALL on August 07, 2013, 07:20:18 PM
It does require a bit of knowledge of the fantasy world.    And some memory.   Thankfully I had a good deal of knowledge regarding the fantasy, but I still forget a lot of the D&D points you have to remember.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 21, 2013, 04:32:03 AM
I very much like this idea. I do not see any point in the Clan Wars. All there is to it. Sure, I'd be out of a job here on TLW, but I already was, in effect. I like Rolina's idea,
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on August 21, 2013, 05:11:08 AM
Would you be willing to give it a shot at making something for us to see?  I think the reason tiles in FE were being considered was simply to make creating maps easier.  It doesn't have to be tiles if you could find an easier way.

Below is a section of the Dark Dawn Weyard map divided into squares.  The X represents the HQ of each team.  Terrain can include the entire battle field or areas that can be traversed on foot.  (Example:  Mountains can't be crossed and getting over rivers require the use of a bridge such as the one shown.)

The goal of goal of each team is to take out the enemy HQ.  In a basic match a limited set of players would take the field and each person would get to move on one square per turn.  (up, down, left, or right)  If the player chooses a square with an opponent a battle will ensue.  (RP battle, tic-tac-toe, chess, etc.)  The winning player will take the square while the losing player will be returned to their HQ, unable to act for a few turns.

-In a battle with more than one person on each team attacking the HQ will freeze it preventing any players from spawning after their time is up.  If the HQ is "attacked" a certain number of times it will be destroyed and the assailant's team will win.  (During an attack the player will remain in the same square next to the HQ, but choosing the HQ square during a turn will damage it.)  The other members of the HQ under assault must defeat the opposing player attacking it or risk losing the game.  If a player defeats the person attacking their HQ it can be selected during the next turn to unfreeze it allowing the recovering players to respawn if their turn time-out is up.

-In a one on one battle there is one major difference.  A "final battle" occurs if the player is inside the HQ when the enemy attacks it.  If the HQ owner loses this special battle the entire HQ will fall no matter how much HP it has remaining.  To make it simple, your goal will most likely be pushing the opponent across the map and defeating them in their HQ.  Keep in mind that each HQ does have a certain amount of hits it can take in this mode, so attacking an empty enemy HQ will take longer and give the enemy a chance to reach the opposing player before their HQ is destroyed.

(http://goldensunforums.thelostwaters.com/profile_pictures/4102_1377058584.png)
 :26:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 21, 2013, 03:51:08 PM
So you're thinking on a scale like Fire Emblem rather than Final Fantasy Tactics...  Where it's a large battlefield as opposed to an area small enough to allow AoE attacks.

I'm not saying that wouldn't work, but I'm a bit more used to the FFT/Disgaea/Tactics Ogre style.  How about this - when two players meet in combat, the winner is decided by a battle of the defender's choice.  This could be an RP battle in colosseo, an online game like Board Game Online or even something like a Chess Match, or heck, maybe even a poetry slam or something.

The trick here, though, is that it's the choice of the person who's defending, not the person who's making the attack.  By doing this, it makes it so that the battles are at least interesting, and that you don't have people sniping others with challenges they're not good at.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on August 22, 2013, 02:16:44 AM
Other rules can be added by the players or the person over the Clan War/Battle/etc. 

Allowing the defending player to choose the battle every time could backfire.  (Example: Player 1 reaches player 2's side of the field and decides not to attack 2.  This forces 2 to initiate the match and fight player 1 in a game of his/her choosing.)  I'd advise allowing the player inside the HQ (1vs1) to choose the game since it is their base and letting the field battles go through a cycle.

A few optional rules to consider:

-If a player is directly above, below, left, or right of you they must be attacked during the next turn.
-Limiting the type of games available in a match.  (Only RP battles/Chess and Tic Tac Toe/Only Chess/etc.)
-Allow ice panel sliding on claimed squares.  If a player gets sent back to their HQ it will be possible to cross all claimed connected squares (The squares with a corresponding colored dot.) in one move until a change in direction is required.
-In a team match allow the recovering player to fight the person attacking the HQ if they are in it.  This will let the recovering player be more useful, but it will also risk the game since this loss would destroy the HQ.
-Allowing the defending player in an HQ to pick the game a set number of times before it becomes a cycle game, or one of the other players choosing, to avoid immunity.  This will give the other player a chance to win even if they aren't good at the game(s) the defending player chooses.  (Note: You don't want a "game master" to remain undefeated just because the other player is bad at the chosen game.)
 :77:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 22, 2013, 02:29:47 AM
I prefer best 2 out of 3 kind of matches so it's fair for both sides, Defender gets first choice, Attacker gets Second Choice, and Neutral or Judge/Admin make the Third choice if the first two are a Tie so its fair.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 23, 2013, 11:39:24 AM
How can it backfire?  Just being next to a person doesn't mean you're fighting them.  You have to declare the attack.  If you chose to end the turn next to them, they do not have to attack you.  Seriously, what tactical games have you played?

Limiting matches is a bad idea.  I can understand not allowing certain extremes, and making sure both parties have what's necessary to partake in the match (ex:  I can't do matches via Street Fighter because I don't have the game), but if you limit it to things like that, you take away the whole point of Defender's Choice - your pretty much force the same type of battle, which then means it's only for people who like that.  So if I don't like or want to play board games, then I simply won't play.  However, if there was no restriction, I'd be much more likely to play, and would even play a boardgame if the defender chose that.

Option 3 is a no.  For this type of map (and game for that matter), AoEs of any kind will not work.  Furthermore, "claimed squares"?  There's nothing about that in your initial proposal.  I think a Fire Emblem approach of just using units, and having the loser being "wiped out" works better.

Option 4 I don't get... each game... does damage?  No.  Fights will drag on forever, and nobody wants that.  Keep it simple for starters - set amount of spaces each unit can move (4 is good), defender's choice, two win conditions - take the keep, or defeat all foes.  Taking the keep is as easy as just moving your unit onto the enemy keep. 

Option 5 - NO.  Just... NO.  That defeats the whole point of Defender's Choice.  The thing is, that's the whole point - to allow the Defender the chance to challenge them at something they may not be as good at.  The key here is to know the defender, and to know their strengths and weaknesses.  Target defenders who play to your strengths.  Sure, in the beginning it'll be a slugfest of sorts, but the more games happen, the more we learn about each other and what we're good at and trend towards, and the more strategic this game can be.

@Takoshi:  I also disagree with this.  Again, this makes games drag on much too long, and again undermines the point of defender's choice.  The point is to add an element of strategy.  If you have it best 2 of 3, then it always goes to the third match because they'll always play to weaknesses.  If you do that, they don't play to each other - they play to the judge.  What does the judge trend towards?  If you think you're better at those than the defender, go in for the kill.  If not, have someone else go at them, while you target another person.  Yes, there's strategy, but it's the wrong type.  You need to judge your actions based on your opponent, not some neutral arbitrator's whims.


Have either of you guys played Apples to Apples or Cards Against Humanity?  People who are good at them don't win because they're crazy funny or really good, but because they play to the Judge's/Card Czar's personal tastes.  If you make a stupid humor joke with your combo, while the other person makes a "meh", I'll give "meh" the point because I don't like stupid humor.  That's the point here - reading each other.  Learning how each other works and thinks, getting to know them better in glorious competition, and exploiting that to the best of your advantage.

Early on, I see this being a killfest.  Everyone going for the attrition win.  Later on, I see them playing it the way it should be - trying to out maneuver one another to the other's base, and sniping a defender you can beat to make an opening.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on August 23, 2013, 05:58:05 PM
@TakoshiWolfite: You could make that a rule.

@Rolina:  Allowing an opponent to pass you up when they are closer to your HQ than you are to theirs would lead to your defeat unless an attack is eventually made by you or a teammate.
 :57:

Adding rules, or "limiting" a match, can sometimes make the game more strategic and fun.  Rules can also shorten or lengthen a game.  The optional rule list is just a bunch of rule suggestions.

The third one listed can speed up a match.  It's more useful in a match that happens in a large arena.  Instead of starting from your HQ and having to get all the way back to your opponent or their HQ one square at a time you could "slide" along vertical/horizontal rows of claimed squares.  The thing I didn't bother mentioning was that other players can claim your square if they move on it thus allowing your row of claimed squares to be shortened or cut.

Those are good suggestions.  To simplify what I meant in the fourth "-": Standing next to and selecting an enemy HQ will damage it.  Attacking an HQ uses one turn.;  Doing this until the set number is reached will destroy the enemy HQ.;  With this particular optional rule in play a team player will be able to defend their HQ just like the a person would in a one player match if they are recovering.

The fifth explains itself.  Here's another example anyway.:  What if you had to play against a professional Chess player who was defending his/her HQ?  If you were a rookie Chess player in this scenario victory would seem impossible.  That's why a limit to prevent an infinite player's choice cycle is useful for HQ defenders.
 :99:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 23, 2013, 06:20:38 PM
@J eh i don't have enough authority I just enforce the rules of the clan wars for the most part, (is Distracted by Anime) oh & good luck trying to appease Rolina.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 23, 2013, 07:12:12 PM
Pass you up? Sure.  But you could also wall in or attack the guy with someone else.  You wanna go after the person who you think you can beat at their own game.  You wanna block the person you don't.  And sometimes, you just have to attack to hope you save the day.

Again, AoEs do not work for something like that.  They're too powerful. 

I think the better idea would be to simply have it be capture based.  This would mean more maneuvers and tactics than just run up and charge, and the stakes for defending would be higher.

Rule Five:  If you have to do that, you lose.  That's the whole point.  Play to your strengths and against the opponent.  Also, really?  A strawman example?  Be more realistic with your examples, please.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on August 24, 2013, 04:12:24 AM
Also, really?  A strawman example?  Be more realistic with your examples, please.
Folly!
 :15: :63:


If anyone else has a question don't hesitate to ask.

 :matthew2: :karis2: :tyrell2: :himi2:
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 26, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
We don't have a pro-ANYTHING on these forums.  I don't wanna hear it.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 27, 2013, 02:09:53 PM
I don't know if i should be amused by this or try to calm this situation down(if i don't end up making it worse first)
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: J on August 27, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
We don't have a pro-ANYTHING on these forums.  I don't wanna hear it.
:52:  I don't get it.
I don't know if i should be amused by this or try to calm this situation down(if i don't end up making it worse first)
(http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18200000/calm-katara-18272075-216-172.jpg)

Maybe a few items can be created to spice up the game.  An HQ wall, double damage, and double points could fit in along with halved damage, turn skip, and HQ damage to add tension.  The squares with items could have a question mark that represents a preselected item hidden from the players.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: TakoshiWolfite on August 27, 2013, 05:57:36 PM
I prefer setting traps
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 28, 2013, 03:54:06 AM
I'm with Takoshi, this needs to be more calm and "professional" instead of so heated. We're here to discuss the future of the Clan Wars and how to improve it, or what to do about it in general.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Merc on August 29, 2013, 02:03:13 AM
Maybe we should also make another topic for improving Clan Wars? This topic is supposed to be more about a new /clan/ system, not a new Clan Wars. We should figure out what the clans are going to be before creating competition type stuff.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 29, 2013, 04:20:45 PM
Sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 29, 2013, 05:27:05 PM
Yes, so what is the thought about the clan system? How can we improve it? We probably already went over this, but if so, it was during my period of sparse activity.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 29, 2013, 06:10:03 PM
Well, the general consensus seems to be that shifting from the Elemental and Fundamental clans to the Four Nations system seems to be a good direction to go.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 29, 2013, 06:22:45 PM
Okay, sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 29, 2013, 06:31:11 PM
Yeah, it's pretty much outlined in the third post, so...
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 29, 2013, 06:32:44 PM
Oh, I'm sorry about that, Rolina. I didn't know.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Rolina on August 29, 2013, 06:33:31 PM
It's fine.  Pretty much just read the first page and you'll get the general idea of the proposal.
Title: Re: Clan Revamping
Post by: Tetsu on August 29, 2013, 06:34:03 PM
Alright, sure thing! Thank you!